Image Credit: Kimberley FrenchLots of things in life, including movies, are love-it-or-hate-it. But when you listen to the two clashing camps of opinion trying to shout each other down over the Twilight books and movies — let’s call them Team Rapture and Team I Can’t Stand This Garbage — you really get the feeling that its members are standing not just on opposite shores but in opposite worlds, on distant planets in enemy solar systems. You get the feeling that they’ve had, and are talking about, two entirely distinct, utterly non-overlapping experiences. It’s no wonder that the twain shall never meet, or even pretend to be civil.
To recap: Either you’re a hater or you’re a Twihard. Either you identify with Bella Swan as a fresh and noble ordinary girl who has a small touch of the extraordinary about her — a lovely wallflower who blooms under the gaze of her courtly vampire beau — or you think that she’s a drippy, passive doormat in thrall to the kind of male-centric romanticism that should have died out around the time of Gone With the Wind. Either you think that the stories are tepid, meandering, and wishy-washy repetitive, or you think that they coast along on wistful currents of yearning, loneliness, and desire. Then, of course, there’s the Great Edward Debate, which got played out here last year in the fury of responses to my New Moon post. Is he a swooningly idealized James Dean/Heathcliff/Brad Pitt figure, an amorous obsessive with just the right touch of otherworldly danger? Or is he a blood-guzzling “stalker,” an erotic harasser who will break into your house and stare at you while you’re asleep because he’s the kind of guy whom any sane girl would avoid at all costs?
What fascinates me, listening to the noisy battle of Team Rapture and Team I Can’t Stand This Garbage, is that the war of opinion over the Twilight saga isn’t just a disagreement about books and movies. It touches something deeper, something that pop culture has always touched and even defined: key questions of what love and sex and romance should look like and feel like, of what they should be. A movie like Eclipse may be a far cry from art, but it’s increasingly clear, at least to me, that the movie hits a nerve, even in people who say they hate it, because it embodies a paradigm shift: a swooning re-embrace of traditional, damsel-meets-caveman values by a new generation of young women who are hearkening back, quite consciously, to the romantic-erotic myths of the past. The Bella Swan view of the world may, on the surface, be the opposite of “rebellious,” but the reason her story sets so many hearts aflame is that it is, in a way, a rebellion — against the authority represented by a generation of women’s-studies classes. Bella’s story is, by nature, a meditative, even meandering one because it’s the story of how she wants to be acted upon, to be loved, desired, coveted, fought over, protected. A movie like Eclipse represents nothing less than a new and unambiguous embrace, by women, of the male gaze.
In many ways, the debate over these movies reminds me of the kinds of arguments that first coalesced 20 years ago around the Susan Faludi book Backlash, in which the author argued that a widespread retreat from many of the mores of traditional feminism was, in effect, a kind of cultural conspiracy, one that reached from corporate boardrooms to the cosmetics industry. I think it’s become clearer in hindsight that what Faludi regarded as a coercive step backward to the dark ages was a lot more complicated than that — that what she viewed as a back-lash was, in reality, a back-swing of the pendulum. With the Twilight saga, that pendulum swing may finally be complete — and some women, let’s be honest, are horrified at that.
A grand paradox in all this is that a great many professed Twilight haters are young men who, though they may not acknowledge it, are threatened by this pop cultural juggernaut. Otherwise, they wouldn’t need to hate it; it represents a notching down of their clout. (That Eclipse broke the single-day Wednesday record set by Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen may well be an iconic box office statistic; it’s a case of woozy, florid, pinup romanticism beating out action toys. Talk about a backlash!) That said, if Bella and her vast sisterhood of fans represent a newly powerful young female demographic, do they also, as some would claim, represent a retreat from personal power? They might indeed if Bella Swan’s behavior were looked at literally, as if she were merely a role model. Yet the Twilight saga, let’s remind ourselves, is a vampire story, a pure fantasy. It should be watched as a kind of retro dream, a vision not of life as it is but of internal emotions made thrillingly external.
The line in my review of Eclipse that provoked the most anger is the one in which I described the books as “Stephenie Meyer’s girl-power-meets-retro-Harlequin-fantasy series.” On the comment board, people railed: How dare I use the words “girl power” to describe Bella Swan? Who could be less powerful than Bella? Yet power, especially in human relationships, is a funny thing. Bella is, of course, a girl who longs to be swept up in Edward’s power, yet what renders her powerful as well is the way that she refuses to shrink from her fear of his attraction. She seeks out, and embraces, the most dangerous love in the room. And that’s a kind of power, too — a very old kind of power that is also, in the Twilight saga, a startlingly new kind of power. It’s not just power but a force. And it is with her.
So we already know that lots of you love Twilight, and that lots of you hate it. But here’s what I want to know: Who relates to it, and doesn’t, as a vision of romance? And does it represent a retreat from feminism — or, in fact, the embrace of a new kind of feminism?
WHY are they still talking about it? WHY?!?!
Tell me about it…
‘We’re’ still talking about it because the film just debuted in theatres. But you knew that right?
This is a pretty poorly written article, Owen Gleiberman. I don’t think you’re really getting this franchise… but maybe that’s because you’re part of the wrong demographic. I’m not even a fan, but I don’t see how you can see Bella as anti-feminism. Sure, the story is badly written (also: a cliche), but you can’t say that Bella has no choice in who she loves and how she loves. And that’s all feminism is about, really. At least within context of this story.
Of course, Twilight itself is not written with a feminist world view in mind. But so what? I would argue that most Hollywood films indeed are not. And women still eat that sh** up.
Maybe not antifeminism per se, but it’s Danielle Steele for the tween set. That’s exactly what it is. That plus the “otherness” of the vampire element, and you can see why this has the appeal of Rebel without a Cause meets Harry Potter. At least a foundational appeal. You’d think by now enough people would have lost interest because the movies aren’t any good.
This ‘poorly written’ article is far more well written than your response. Just because you disagree doesn’t make it ‘poorly written’. Much the same way you might say that just because someone dislikes the ‘Twilight’ books doesn’t necessarily make them bad books.
Poorly written describes everything about Twilight so why not keep the article in language the “fans” can understand and Owen get it right, they are not Twihards they are Twitards.
…and Jacob has no shirt on throughout 75-80% of the movies. Is there anything more feminist than staring at half naked wereboys?
Well, what an over analysis of an average teen movie. Typical teen themes with a conservative American “purity ring” element. The script was so predictable that I sat through most of the film correctly guessing the next line. The film was a mix of episodes of US history (genocide of American Indians), Westside Story with a positive we can get along vibe all mashed together with a vampire twist. Bella’s character had zero power. She fancies a vampire big deal. The first movie was better because the way it was filmed was more moody reflected by the cold wet weather, with better cinematography. What size were those wolves supposed to be? In one scene Jacob wolf was gigantic and way taller than Bella and the vamp then in other scenes way smaller?
ppl are funny. a story of love, is what twilight is about. is it the type of love u want? perhaps not. keep it moving then, but obviously there are some who want to be taken away by it. the vampires and werewolves are just for show. love is the center theme. it is what drives the stories and the movies. and i say this as a fan. not to mention, a dallas cowboys lovin, sex havin, rap-listenin, baggy pants wearin, 24-year-old man!
)
Mira, your comment was pretty poorly written itself.
To Mira: that’s not what feminism is about. It’s about not being controlled by men. It’s about being seen as equals. It has nothing to do with love.
Anyone who calls Bella a feminist heroine doesn’t really understand what feminism is. Bella takes no action. She does nothing. She exists only to disrupt. The action happens in spite of her. She is the worst example of what a girl is. She is a blank. What does she aspire to except be with one of two boys who would rather pose off than actually do something? Does she want to change the world? Does she care about the environment she lives in? Does she intend to go to college? Or will she end up giving birth at 19?
I think this piece, although not precise in research and conclusion (and who would expect it to be?), poses a great question about the ramifications of a major literary and movie character that many of the country’s young women are idealizing. I don’t consider myself a Twihard or whatever, but I have read the books and have seen the movies. The books are not literary masterpieces, but they are great escapist fiction. The movies (especially the first) are generally boring but I like to keep up-to-date on the big movies and compare the finished movie with the books and my imagination-land.
With that all said… I don’t think that the character of Bella is necessarily anti-feminist but I could certainly understand why those with feminist ideals would be upset by a bunch of young women desiring to be her. Bella repeatedly talks about how plain, ugly, unintelligent, and uncoordinated she is and how she really isn’t worthy of Edward’s love and affections. Although this is relatable to the average teen girl’s psyche, it isn’t exactly a self-esteem booster. SPOILER ALERT* Bella continues to have these feelings until she dies/transforms (even then she questions her looks and abilities) and yes, becomes a married mother at 19.
Even if you left the fantasy out of the equation (my dad would have shot Edward for trying to marry me, no doubt)it’s the actual contents of the “Eclipse” novel that are the most frightening. (The depression and semi-attempted suicide of Bella’s in New Moon comes in at a close second) It is only addressed in one scene of the movie, but the worst thing for young women to read in my opinion is the apparent accepting of the jealous, possessive, and domineering behavior that Edward puts forth when Bella attempts to see Jacob. In the book he does much more than just stop her truck from working one time. It’s that control (and her willingness to allow it to continue because she “loves” him) that will permeate in young girls’ minds as “okay” and may possibly create a backswing in feminism and the advancement of women/girls in the coming years.
Now this is not to say that ALL young girls/women think like Bella or would put up with that kind of behavior from their significant other, but coming from someone who was there at one point and dealt with it myself personally and with friends, it is a big problem among teenagers. No, I am not advocating censorship of any kind, but I think it is important to evaluate the possible ramifications of popular culture so that it can be discussed with young women/men.
Did you just say Twitard? You’re the moron then, not people who like Twilight. Idiots like you need to realize RETARDED is an incredibly offensive word. You think you’re so funny and above it all, but you’re really just plain stupid.
I have multiple advanced degrees. I am 41-year old woman. I do not share the opinion of the other woman who says she and her friends have advanced degrees and loved these books and films. I think it is dangerous to talk about the “female psyche” as if women were a simple, monolithic group. I admit that I read the first three books and have seen all three films. I neither love nor hate them. I was entertained but not enthralled. I understand why they are appealing. However, I DO think Bella is a problematic role model for young women. She is passive, waits for men to save her, and is willing to sacrifice her family, her education, and her LIFE to be with a boy. That’s problematic. However, I also understand the romance of watching a rather dull girl who has two exciting supernatural boys fighting over her. It’s appealing to many girls and women that she doesn’t have to be special to have special love. I get it. But let’s not jump to conclusions about the female psyche over some mediocre books and mediocre films. Let’s enjoy and be critical.
It’s a story. There are thousands of books/ movies/ magazine articles that young women contact and might like. Do all of these have to be approved for “teaching young grils the right lessons” or being appropriately femenist. Femenism is about 1 thing and thats choice. Women should be allowed to do anything they want, read anything they want, identify with anyone heroin. It’s silly that this is beign analyzed like this. If you don’t like the story don’t read it. But people identify with characters in fiction for numerous reasons. There’s no grand overarching theme here. If you are a parent and you daughter is obsessed with Twilight and your worried. TALK TO HER. Ask her why she likes the books what she thinks of Edward and Bella’s relationship. That’s pretty much all you can do.
We are still talking about it because it’s the biggest thing in pop culture right now, and it sells. Get over it.
No. Not valid nor true reasons. Try again.
It’s not the biggest thing at all. Not even close.
It only sells to dimwitted, teenage girls and their mothers.
I am over it. I just like to annoy.
I know you think that just because the movie made millions that everybody is watching it. I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this but you’re sadly mistaken..
An average Tweeny bopper watches the movie atleast 3 times in the theatre, then you have the mother who use this pathetic excuse of mother and daughter bonding by watching twilight with their kid and last, the boyfriend who was weak enough to tell her gf “NO!” If you do your math right, you will clearly see that this movie is no big pop culture. Just crazy teens with a mother and a week minded bf.
@ poordac….and who the f**k are you to generalize people like that? Get off your high horse and enjoy life a little more, you wormy little buzzkill. God, I bet you are just miserable. lol
Ha! You people are FUNNY! I’m 44 years old and me and all of my girlfriends, ranging in age from 35 to 58 LOVE this story. We are all college graduates with advanced degrees, we are professionals and none of us has kids. There are many, many like us out there. This story strikes a cord in females of all ages and all intellects, that is a fact. Wouldn’t it be more relevant to take that fact seriously instead of assuming that these millions of fans are all “soft in the head?” Wouldn’t it be more interesting to ask what it is in the collective female psyche that is triggered by the themes in this story? And wouldn’t it be more telling to figure out why the critics DON’T get it? Maybe we’d learn something that might help men and women get along better…
I find it hard to believe that someone with an advanced degree in anything would use the phrase “me and my girlfriends.” Or maybe your advanced degree is in something that doesn’t require basic grammar skills.
judging from your hostile reaction, seems like you’re the one who is miserable…
“wormy buzzkill”
You just proved poordac’s point. Take a deep breath, get your mom, and go see the movie for the fourth time to calm yourself down.
The Twilight charcaters are like cardboard cut outs. There are no other relationships other than those that feature Bella and quite frankly I kept asking “when are they going to have sex?” Harlequin/Mills and Boon for lazy generation ys.
it is true that people go see these movies over and over. but eclipse still broke the record for the midnight showing (which i think was previously held by new moon?). obviously, the midnight show is only 1 view per person. i saw it at midnight and there were not very many guys there. it was mostly groups of girls/women seeing it together. also, i doubt that there are very many people who buy multiple copies of the books for themselves. these books have sold over 100 million copies. when you look at these numbers, i don’t see how you can deny that there are A LOT of people watching these movies and reading these books. i don’t think it would be unfair to say that these movies and books have been seen and read more than 99% of the movies and books out there. and not just by “crazy teens with a mother and a [weak]minded bf.”
I really don’t understand how literate, educated, strong women could stand to read this dribble (well I guess one would have to be literate.) But seriously, Hardy’s Tess is a weak-willed woman who gets handed off between two men like an object, but she gets PUNISHED for her lack of power. And Tess of the Dubervilles was written how long ago?? I mean this isn’t even a step back for women in literature, it’s a time warp.
Nobody is denying the fact that it is a blockbuster hit. Even Poordac (feel silly typing that name) never denied it. I think he meant that it’s just simply not as BIG as the media is claiming it to be. That not everybody is watching it. Yes, ALOT of people are watching it, but not EVERYBODY. It’s no Beatles.
Betty White did SNL and the ratings for that show on that night more than doubled it’s avarage ratings.The twilight crew were on Leno and failed to raise the ratings for that show on that particular night. Needless to say, it is not that popular with all household viewers. It’s big among teens and females but that’s it. Twilight is only as big as Transformer is for guys, but as one big pop culture phenomenon like that one poster claim it is, not really….just saying
Wanna know where people go to snag an interracial relationship, say, Just for future reference? “interracial Central”? “San Carlos” ? or “San Francisco”?*** Blackwhite Cupid C /om *** is the real place that is packed with them.
That’s drivel
I think you meant “we” not “they” since the article obviously caught your eye enough to get on and comment about it.
We should not have to be grammar perfect on a blog….c’mon….Anyway I am 29 and I love this story. It is not just teenage girls and their mothers that watch and read Twilight…but it is an even split between everyone.
“An evil split between everyone?”
So you’re telling me 17 year old boys love twilight just as much as 12 year girls?
no s==t it’s an overanalysis. seriously, the film nor its impact is not that deep. and that bs about there being a “power” in loving the most dangerous thing in the room? really? there’s no power, intelligence, or rationality in that. many, if not most women, love “bad boys” or have relationships that are more negative than positive. that’s being weak. loving the guy who treats you like crap is rather easy, apparently. loving the guy who makes you less independent is rather easy. loving the guy who constantly puts you or your welfare (emotionally or physically) is easy. Shall i continue???
I went to the midnight showing of Eclipse and I have to say, I was completely shocked by how many guys were there. There were not many men older than 30, but there were a lot of guys either in high school or college. Also, my fiancé and my dad (who both went to the midnight showing with me) were just as excited about this movie as I was. So I would say while there are a whole lot of teenage girls with their moms going to this movie, they are not the only ones enjoying these movies and books.
Now in regards to the article, I think that the relationship between Edward and Bella is entirely unhealthy. If anyone thinks that they want a relationship like that or that it is normal, they should be set straight. Under what circumstances it is ok for a girl to actually be in love with 2 guys and go kiss the one that she isn’t dating, then the one she is with be completely ok with it? That screams all sorts of unfulfillment issues. When Edward leaves in New Moon, Bella becomes practically comatose, which is just plain disturbing. That isn’t healthy. However, I don’t think that these things mean that people shouldn’t read these books or that they are idiots for enjoying it. If anything, it can spark intelligent conversations between people (if they want to think really deeply about it).
If parents are concerned, they can talk to their kids about it. It’s great to analyze books/films and have intelligent and informed conversations about them, but I also believe it is important to just read a book for the enjoyment and leave it at that. Twilight is great because you can do one or the other. It isn’t ground breaking literature, but it can be thought provoking if you make it so. Also, the numbers don’t lie; people do enjoy Twilight and that isn’t changing anytime soon, no matter how many people scream on this boards about how stupid Twihards are… though, I do admit going to the midnight showing with a bunch of teenage girls screaming about Jacob’s abs did get obnoxious. Yes, he is hot, but I have enough self restraint and dignity to not bother the people around me who are trying to watch the movie whenever I see someone’s hot abs. I did not squeal when Bradley Cooper walked around shirtless in A-Team even though I think he is even more hot than Taylor Lautner. I think in that case, it is a maturity issue and you can just shake your head and move on rather than call them morons. They will grow out of it, and if not, be a bigger person and get over it.
Steff, thanks so much for that intelligent response. I’m a 22 year old law student and I consider myself an ardent feminist, but I don’t have a problem admitting that I love Twilight. I too worry about the message these books are sending to 12 year olds about what how they think a normal relationship should operate. But it’s a fantasy. Just because you enjoy the entertainment doesn’t make you an idiot.
Thank you Steff. Thank you for finally telling it like it is. I agree with everything you said, well everything except the Bradley Cooper part.
I can tell you that I know three teenage boys (age 17 and 18) who went a saw New Moon 4 times in the theater! So, yes, I believe that it is as popular with boys as it is will girls. They are just less likely to admit to it.
Those three boys who secretly saw it 4 times are probably hiding other secrets too.
I have not seen this movie, I saw the first movie and read the first 3 books and found them to be boring, repetitive and slightly disturbing. Edward is controlling, Bella is passive and whiny and they do not have a healthy relationship. If this is what teenage girls think a relationship should be then I am disturbed. Bella is dating a man who is much much older than her, a man who locks her up in his house because he doesn’t want her to spend time with another guy. Bella makes no sense because she swears she wants to become a vampire so she can be with Edward for eternity yet she won’t marry him because marriage didn’t work for her parents? Huh? What kind of message is this sending to young girls or young boys? I haven’t even touched on the part about being so devastated by a breakup that she becomes comatose and he tries to commit suicide.
Steff, I like what you said. I am 36 and I love the Twilight books and movies. I have a B.S. and I still like them. I think New Moon was the worst book but I liked the New Moon movie the best so far. I do think the author of the article was looking way to deeply into this story. I believe that many people love it just because it has vampires and werewolves that are more human than in other stories previously written. Yes bella and Edward have a very unhealthy relationship but my daughter and I get to talk about it when we watch/read this story. She loves the movies and the characters but does not want to be like Bella. She doesn’t understand why she likes Edward so much when he is not that great of a guy. So yes, I think that these movies are fun to watch and don’t corrupt young girls. I mean who really looks at life after watching these movies and says,” I hope I meet a nice vampire like Edward to marry” They are called fantasies for a reason. Besides, my 10 year old daughter who claims to hate reading and tries to read 3rd grade level books for school(she is going into 6th)has finally opened up a book closer to her level and is reading Twilight for her summer reading. Any author that can do that is a gift to me. I say,”Keep it coming!”
P.S. Even with my degree and working on my masters dgree I still suck at grammer. That is what editors are for. So have a field day with this post.
Steff: “Under what circumstances it is ok for a girl to actually be in love with 2 guys and go kiss the one that she isn’t dating, then the one she is with be completely ok with it?”
Honey, haven’t you watched the Bachelorette?????
hahha.. THEY are still talking about it because a new movie came out this week… Lets put two and two together here.
Why is it always the people who allegedly hate the Twilight films, the ones who FIRST post on every Twilight thread? LOL
I agree with you. It is always the ones that hate it that have to voice it first.
Honestly people, it is the biggest thing out right now this summer. Get over it and read the facts.
The greatest thing out this summer is not the twilight movie. Actually the world cup hasn’t gotten more views in their first game than this movie. Anyone who can be obssesed with this series has no life. Mostly teen girls like this movie because of the actors. I bet I can make a movie with a “hot” guy make him take his shirt off and girls will like it. Add some mosters and some love and there you go we have a movie. Even the writers and producers didn’t expect such a hit because honestly the story doesn’t flat out sucks.
@Tim: hahaha seriously! there’s no need for hate people, no one’s forcing you to see the movie/read the books. i get it if you’re not a fan, but i don’t see twi-hards attacking anyone!
The very same reason people who purport to hate True Blood do the same thing. It’s called pot-stirring.
Anyone who bash people who are obsessed with this series TRULY have no life. I mean really, why all the hate for something that is entertainment?
@rick – I bet I can make a movie with a “hot” girl make her wear a teeny bikini and guys will like it. Add some monsters and some explosions and there you go, we have a movie. Nobody complains about those movies though. It’s ok for guys to love blockbuster movies that “a far cry from art” as the article states but somehow it’s wrong for women to love the same kind of thing.
@rick – I bet I can make a movie with a “hot” girl make her wear a teeny bikini and guys will like it. Add some monsters and some explosions and there you go, we have a movie. Nobody complains about those movies though. It’s ok for guys to love blockbuster movies that “a far cry from art” as the article states but somehow it’s wrong for women to love the same kind of thing.
YES. This. I think the Twilight books are poorly written, cliched, and send a rather dubious message about relationships– but the idea of attacking women for liking it is equally offensive. Look at all the crap Hollywood churns out each year aimed toward the 18-40 male. 90% of it is terrible– poorly written, cliched, nary a woman to be seen that has her own personality or storyline– but somehow that’s ‘all good fun in the name of entertainment.’ For every movie that’s aimed toward women there are 50 more with explosions and car chases aimed toward men. Something’s not right here.
I just watch the films to oggle Rob Pattinson. No more no less
I think it is interesting that you liked this movies the best of the 3. I am a Twi-hard (I guess that’s what they call us) and I thought that it was the worst one. I like the second one best. I thought they did a great job on the werewolves. I don’t read the books to excercise my brain, I just read them because they are a fun easy read that you don’t need to think about too much to enjoy. I love reading books about genetics but they just don’t have the same effect. Thank you for your post it was an interesting read.
Okay. I loathed the first two movies although Twilight i had a slight connection with! Maybe the music, maybe just the fun of hype. I dont know why. I wanted to love New Moon, but it failed in my eyes. Minus a few neat touches, if uninspired all the same. The books are shit. How can you women put yourselves down so much by reading a children’s level vampires for dummies book…. where the heroine is a repulsively selfish bitch! She has these two guys fighting over her and she seems to love the attention like a whory naive little slut! I’d be disgraced as a women. There is almost no story let alone originality in the series…. thanks for spending your money on trash over true art. I never thought I’d say Underworld was a work of art compared to anything but it really is a superior vampire romance. That said, with all the hate ive inflicted….. Eclipse shocked me. I kinda loved it! As soon as the characters were introduced therewas something so fresh…. it was life. The first movies with the exception of Twilight having a little flare of teenage passion here and there, had no life and were so undeserving of box office or crittical praise. That’s not an opinion its a fact that the movies were cashgrabs manipulating screaming girls into spending their money on trash-art!!!! lazy films, really. But even in the first scene of Bella and Edward laying in bed, although we’d seen it before it was soooo much more affective. There was passion. Director david slade got great acting out of kristen bell who has shown she’s got the chops in Into the Wild, Panic Room, Speak, and best of all, Adventureland, a criminally underseen gem!!! and robert pattinson who was decent in Goblet of Fire, was much improved here too!!! Now the movie has alot of problems, yes, but it felt so much more cinematic and had much more depth and i finally was able to get past the problems and just go with it!!! It was the quieter scenes that did this for me, igniting that romantic passion that is the only reason i can think of that girls love the books…. I’ve been rambling but its not an opinion. It’s a fact. Eclipse is a good movie. not great , but its emotional impact on me and shock that i was seeing some magic…. makes it a great movie to me!!! but one last thing. After Edward gave his speech about how his love for Bella goes.. to jacob in the tent, and then all you girls who finally make going to the movies fun with your participation(why dont we clap and shout at the movies anymore its supposed to be an experience)cheered for Jacob when he kissed Bella…… how could you all not choose Edward… he said hed let her go if she had to choose jacob… that makes edward the most loving selfless vampire character of all time and kinda made jacob look like a desperately obsessed pity party!!! but the audience always symathises for a pity party(easy manipulation) soooo team edward alll the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are you so hostile to other girls and women? What is behind this need to call other women bitches and sluts. There is something very wrong here that you need to think about.
Well its not an opinion but a fact that the first two movies were manipulative cashgrabs which means all you girls paid to see s**t. oh and the books suck and are written at kindergarden level….. but David Slade the new director, breathed new life into this and made a movie that i was shocked i kinda loved. There was passion, romance and depth that the movies lacked…. how can you not be for team edward after his love speech in the tent with the naive, depressingly desperately, obsessed and jealous pity party that was a blinded by rage if he doesnt get what he wants which is a selfish scheming and having fun with two guys fighting over her giving her attention, Bella. Third times a charm with this superior to the books film and that is not an opinion its a fact. ha. Kristen Stewart, best in Adventureland(criminally unerrated) Into the Wild, Speak, and Panic Room, is finally being pushed to take her not likeable character seriously by a skilled director, and in the first moments when theyre in bed, (should be repetitive feeling) it felt so real, raw and beautifully, affectingly, emotionally performed. Ignited a spark of life that maintained throughout. I was so impressed with this film or maybe it was just how much better it was than the previous two that my expectations were sooo low! I dunno. But all ill say is Team Edward all the way!!!!
Actually, that IS an opinion. Not a fact. I agree with a lot of what you said, but it’s definitely your own opinion.
I don’t love it or hate it. I enjoy it for what it is: the romantic teenage girl’s vision of how love should be if you take out the supernatural elements. It may not be realistic or ideal but I don’t think fantasy always has to destroy the rational. Plenty of people have goofy fantasies they don’t expect to come true and I think people are analyzing this stuff too much. ESPECIALLY its critics; they are giving it too much credence while also calling it garbage. I don’t think you can have it both ways.
…Good point
I concur.
i agree. im not a twihard and i dont hate it.its an ok franchise. i cant relate to it.i just watch for what it is. the guys in it arent bad to look at either.
Am I the only one that does not find these guys the least bit attractive?!
To Ashley Raye: You’re not alone.
Exactly what I was thinking.Just glad I’m not the only one !!! ;D
It’s not necessarily Taylor and Rob that are attractive, for everyone that read the books, they have an image of Jake and Edward in their head — Taylor and Rob represent those images, so no matter what, the readers will see Jake and Edward — that’s what they feel is hot, not necessarily the actors themselves.
@Felicia: i totally agree with you. it’s weird that the haters are the ones who are so “passionate” about commenting on all these twilight articles. i think to a certain, all of the fantasy books/movies/tv shows (like twilight, harry potter, or whatever else) have an ability to relate to all their audiences, no matter how unbelievable the plot is. it’s mostly in the characters of course. i’m sure most girls can relate to bella’s vulnerability and shyness, and as she comes out of her shell in the series, i think girls feel that they can too. so minus the supernatural elements, characters in our favorite fantasy stories can be stripped down and seen as normal human beings. so haters can hate, but obviously twilight isn’t going anywhere any time soon. the fans of the series might not take the story as seriously as they think. for most, it’s probably just an easy read of a love story and movie. the fact that it has had such massive success just goes to show that people have been missing a certain dangerous love story.
I don’t love it or hate it. Watched the first movie, it was below average movie. Didn’t bother with 2nd one.
I am considering reading the book, because everyone has said that it’s better than the movie.
Yeah, but that’s not how love should be, even an idealized version. At least in the movie, there’s really no chemistry between Bella and Edward and I never bought their relationship for one second. It would be the same even without the supernatural elements. Personally, if I want an idealized romance, I’d rather watch Titanic.
i’m sorry, who are you to tell me what is love?
Do you have ice in your veins???
No chemistry between Bella and Edward!!! Robert Pattinson is amazingly sensuous in these films. I find Edward to be one of the most romantic characters I have seen portrayed in a very long time.
@pop: Amy wasn’t telling you how love is – as a matter of (unfortunate) fact, the male-controlled, dependent-female relationship happens a lot in real life. What she was trying to say was that’s not how it SHOULD be.
@susie: You didn’t mention the chemistry BETWEEN Edward and Bella. That’s what Amy was talking about – not how “sensuous” Edward is, or how “romantic” he is. He actually isn’t that romantic, what with leaving his girlfriend and acting super controlling when he gets back and all. However, I will not argue the “sensuous” point for fear of getting drawn into a comment war.
Why are people treating these books and movies as a how-to-guide on romance and life? I think the books/movies are great fun and interesting escapism – and really aren’t meant to be taken so seriously. I don’t turn to such books for women’s lib and neither do I expect a 17-year-old character in a book to be perfect -I like that Bella is flawed.
just wondering, but how is Bella Mary Sue Swan flawed?
Exactly. She’s not flawed at all. She’s just dumb, weak, whiny, and a doormat. Flawed characters have depth, purpose, internal conflict, and other intriguing qualities. Bella is too one-dimensional to be flawed.
If you watch this movie with an open mind you can see that there is nothing wrong with Jacob and Edward’s character. Those two were nicely written, brave, heroic, loving, and with a pupose. Bella’s character on the other hand is a little disturbing. A teenager who has no respect for life especially her own life and who lives in bubble that revolves around her boyfriend. Which is why it so sad that tweens nowadays try and live vicariously through her. This whole saga would not have been that bad had they tweeked her character to a more mature and intelligent teenager. If you’re a mother, would you really want your daughter to have her as a role model? To a mature audience it is just a movie but does your kid really beleive that?
First of all, Scarlett O’Hara may have been written into a period piece when women were damsels and doormats but Scarlett was nobodies door mat.
Second, JJ has this right. I think the uproar for this series is not over the boys but over the girl. She tries to kill herself because her boyfriend left her. The end,
Liz is obviously one of those people who hate it, but don’t even know anything about it. Bella never tried to kill herself. If you are going to judge people, at least try to educate yourself first.
Honestly, if you’re going to put something down at least get your facts straight. Never in these books or these movies does the main character try to kill herself because her boyfriend left her. In addition, Bella is no one’s doormat. She makes it perfectly clear that she’s going to get what she wants. As she matures throughout the series, she learns to make meaningful compromises to consider the feelings of others while still holding fast to what she believed and wanted out of life despite what could have been truly considered “good” for her. That’s something Scarlett O’Hara never did. She was a b*tch through and through, and she got hers. I’d rather my daughter have Bella as a role model than Scarlett.
Bella as a role model? How old are you? I’m not a die hard fan of the series but I am a fan. I have no kids at 22 but when I do have one, I would hope for her for her to choose a more admirable person rather than a fictional character who was created for the purpose of teen romance.
Oh Sean. Bella’s only good quality is her loyalty. Otherwise, she is underdeveloped, weak, passive, submissive, and willing to sacrifice her entire life and future for a boy. I hope real teenage girls are more ambitious. And I don’t hate her. I just think she’s a poorly written character and a poor role model.
did you read the same copy of new moon that i did? because pretty much the entirety of that book was a depressed bella trying to kill herself…
Exactly! Anyone who read New Moon and can’t figure out what all that speeding around on motorcycles and diving off of cliffs was about maybe needs to take a remedial reading class.
She was not trying to kill herself. And you people need to stop saying that people who have different opinions are stupid in some way
Uh no she didn’t try to kill herself. Clearly you read a bootleg copy of some sort.
She never tried to kill herself, did you actually read the book? Or did you just go on what other people said?
OMG, CAN you nay sayers read? She never tried to kill herself…she promised Edward she wouldn’t do anything to hurt herself, when he left she said, why should she honor that request when he didn’t honor her. When she would get in an “adrenaline fueled situation she would hear what (her mind) thought he would say and THAT is why she became an adrenaline junky…not suicide!
New Moon makes perfectly clear that Bella’s experimenting with motorcycles represents a suicidal longing or fixation. Dangerous, self-destructive behavior often represents that for depressed adolescents.
I’m not worried about what adult women take away from these books. Go ahead and read trashy escapist novels if you want to. I worry about how these books shape the beliefs of young girls, who don’t have the experience to know that the relationships in these stories are fantasies.
And while Bella doesn’t ever swallow pills, she obviously has less concern for her own safety and less value for her own life after her boyfriend breaks up with her. That is an APPALLING message to send to a young girl! I would never want my child to read nonsense like that.
Let’s pretend that nobody thinks for themselves and a book can completely shape one’s personalities, esteem and viewpoints. Nope not feeling it.
How about this… instead of censoring your child, TALK to her about it. It’s incredible what an open conversation will do. It will make your child intelligent about it and help her make her own opinions, give her a mind of her own. She’ll be exposed to stuff even worse than this at some point in her life, so rather than shelter her make her knowledgeable. She can have a critical mind, which will make her more intelligent and much more enjoyable to talk to. Ignorant people who argue that something is trash are annoying because they don’t know why it is trash. Let her read it and talk to her about why it isn’t okay and let her talk about her opinions as well. Also, there are fun, escapism aspects of Twilight she may enjoy, and if you treat her like an adult she can treat the books the way an adult would: like fiction. It isn’t real, and once she understands that she will be a better contributor to society.
Nolan. I am an adult, and I share your concerns. In addition to her depression and suicidality, she is also willing to sacrifice everything, including her life, for a boy/man. A very tragic message for young women in 2010.
Even “escapist” entertainment should be taken seriously.
no! no it should not! what should be taken seriously is education. if you are properly educated you can see this for what it is. entertainment. “what if situation”. read it, see it, enjoy it and forget it.
if everything gets taken seriously and regulated according to your perception of how it should be then goodbye imagination, adios progress.
get a grip!
This is the one comment I finally agree with here. I saw ECLIPSE with my sisters and all of us enjoyed it, but for different reasons. I think it’s great that the movies (and the books) illicit not just controversy, but conversations/debates. No woman (or fan of the series) I spoke to look at Bella as any kind of role model. (Did Hermione from Harry Potter draw this much attn?!) I’ve been told that Edward, to most, represents your first love and/or your ideal guy (ie. dangerous, charming, mysterious, unselfish, protective). But Jacob represents CHOICE and the truth of it is that majority of girls don’t end up w/ the first guy they ever loved. To me, those themes/ideas are interesting. Honestly, Eclipse cemented to me that Jacob is the wiser choice, albeit the easier choice because Bella wouldn’t have to leave her human life behind but… whatever… it’s just a story.
My comment was in response/addition to Kelly 07/02/10 1:06 pm
Hermione would have been a terrific role model, smart, gifted, loyal, creative. But, young women aren’t obsessed with her. Why do they love Bella so much? Is it because Bella is so ordinary and anybody can be like her – minus the sexy supernatural boyfriends? It’s easier to be a Bella – passive, depressed – than it is to be a Hermione?
Or maybe most of us hate the books because they’re poorly written garbage, and the movies because they’re badly made, terribly acted versions of poorly written garbage.
…they are garbage to you…no need to be so harsh. It is a fun read, not meant to be shakespeare.
By most of us, I was refering to those described as ‘haters’- what Mr. Gleiberman calls “Team I Can’t Stand This Garbage”. That would not logically include anyone who considers the Twilight books to be a fun read.
I agree with Kelly and Kristen, these books are good for what they are, and If you hate them so much why are you taking the time to write about them? Bella is not weak, whiny, or a doormat. I like her, that’s what it feels like to be seventeen and in love. All I know is that those books take me back. Oh and get a grip Bella’s not supposed to be anybody’s role model. I think most of the haters are males who don’t measure up, or women who are insecure. Since when does being a real women make you powerless? You must not be reading the same books I am, seems like some of you need a reality check.
Wrong…it’s the majority of the twihards that are insecure and need to believe in a world where they can have someone “love” them the way that Edward “loves” Bella. I don’t take issue with the movies as they marginally improve on the writing of the books by not forcing the viewer to sit inside Bella’s head (“OMG, Edward is like, so hot…how could he ever love me?”) the way that Meyer constantly does. I take issue with the fact that Meyer, that evil genius, is clearly portraying immature, high school lust as enduring love and expecting the masses to buy it. When push comes to shove, it is all about whether you buy into the Edward and Bella relationship. I can’t…I look for more in a relationship than “never-ending amber eyes, the color of honey,” (or whatever trite, purple prose Meyer uses to describe Edward), a sparkly, rock hard body, and jealous, controlling, over-protection.
Brandi, your delusional. I mean, sure these books are fun fluff, but telling women that if they have a problem with Bella its because they are insecure? That is so far off the mark its laughable. Bella Swan is one of the worst female characters in literature. She is selfish, childish, superficial, and weak. She is no woman, she is a child with serious issues. Of course, I think that speaks loads about the author, and about he kind of girls ho are idolizing Bella. If there are insecurity issues its with the girls who think Bella is some kind of heroine.
Jodipo, are you suggesting that for a novel to be good, the characters have to be good characters? You described Bella as “selfish, childish, superficial, and weak” – exactly the same way most people would describe Cathy from Wuthering Heights, who is one of the most famous characters in literature. A bad character is not necessarily a poorly written character. I think what you were attempting to say is that Bella is one of the most poorly written characters in literature, yes? Well I suppose I have a quick response to that – for Twilight to be considered literature in the first place (which it is not, pardon your ignorance), it would have to be well written. Suggestions: learn the definition of literature, read some examples of literature, and come back with an argument that displays some kind of knowledge on the subject. It will give your comments a bit of weight.
Could not have said it better.
the books are garbage cuz they reveal much like george bush did… that today’s society is filled with morons too lazy to think much at all with reading skills at a fourth grade level! im disgusted by old woman who scream for today’s fads such as twilight and justin beiber.
maybe “garbage” to you but look at the millions she’s draggin’ in! When most are lovin’ the saga & your hating & trashing it…maybe you should take a look at your opinion of “garbage” because obviously your opinion isn’t shared
You’re completely right, because Jennifer is the ONLY one on this website who hates twilight. No one else dislikes it. Everyone, EXCEPT, Jennifer thinks it’s the best thing to happen to literature in a long time. Her opinion isn’t shared at all. *end sarcasm*
While Eclipse isn’t going to win any Oscars, it definitely wasn’t any worse than Transformers, and nobody freaked out over the hoardes of people going to see that tripe. I think there must be an element of sexual identity-based fear to all the pearl-clutching, as Owen suggested.
To Sarah @ 2:12—well said. NO one has any problem with Adam Sandler movies, which IMO are totally wasted time and effort; nor any of the ultra-violent Transformers-blow-everything-up-and-that’s-great movies. yet go back to romance, especially as Edeard described n his proposal to Bella, and lord help us, its trash. I’m over 55 and I see so much of my 17-yr-old self in her it’s just not funny. I relate. I don’t care what others think of that fact.
Those movies suck too, but they also didn’t receive the same level of attention as twilight.
Fridays, there’s the problem with this entire thing – You’re 55. Nobody who is 55 should be interested in Twilight. Ever. Now go watch ‘It’s Complicated’ and leave us alone.
Just for the record: I hated that tripe too. But you’re right, there certainly has been the pearl-clutching (love that expression btw) over it.
Oops! Make that “there hasn’t been the pearl-clutching”. Proof-reading before hitting ‘post’ is a good thing.
You relate, fridays, because Bella is meant to be someone you can easily substitute with yourself. She’s described in such general, common terms so anybody can say, “Oh, that’s exactly how I am!” I’ve been there myself. Then I realized I had way more willpower and self-respect than that Mary Sue does.
This comment is actually a reply to Kate. Kate, someday you’ll be 55 or (gasp!) older and you won’t appreciate being told what you can or can’t enjoy. I personally can’t stand the Twilight books and movies but surely everybody has the right to enjoy them, if they’re able to do so. Try being a bit more tolerant.
yes kate, please do try to remember that everyone has a right to like whatever they want, no matter how old they are. The ‘problem’ is people who don’t realize that.
This one’s for Kate too: your comment was bitchy and unnecessary and makes you seem childish and disrespectful. Why would you care who is a fan? Idiotic comment.
I wouldn’t describe the Twilight books as “garbage” but they’re far from a literary masterpiece. However, they seem to have peeked your interest enough to READ them. If they were that terrible, you wouldn’t have done so. Obviously something about them made you sit down and read all of them, and if you haven’t, then you can hardly comment on them.
No need to be so nasty. If you hate them so much, why even read articles pertaining to them. It does sound as if you have read the books and seen the movies. I have to ask>>>why?
Sorry, this was supposed to be posted as a reply to Jennifer.
Maybe Stephanie Meyer was trying to portray Bella with this force within her, like you said, that doesn’t give in to fear of such a dangerous romance. Maybe that’s exactly how Ms. Meyer has Bella characterized in her head. And maybe, if the Twilight Saga were written as eloquently as this article, then these ideas would come across, and there would be more of a grey area in between these two teams. Unfortunately, I have yet to see proof that the author has the literary ability to pull of such a complex idea.
Meyer has said herself that she wrote the books for fun. To entertain. There is no thought behind them. Don’t give her more credit than she’s due. They are just some bored housewife’s attempt at fan fiction.
That “bored housewife” is now a multi-millionaire. You wish only wish you could have written it.
on the plus side, i’m sure she has inspired a lot of people to become authors- who knew you didn’t need to actually be a decent writer to be an successful author!!
No. I wouldn’t want my name permanently associated with that mess. No one admires her, in case you haven’t noticed. She’s a disgrace to the literary world. Even Stephen King said she couldn’t write worth a damn.
And, wouldn’t you like to be her right now???
Yes, you would like to be her. Call us when you’ve written a book that’s sold:
Twilight 47 million
New Moon 52 million
Eclipse 58 million
Breaking Dawn 69 million
If anyone has read the books then you would that in the end it is Bella’s powers that intimidate everyone. It is that Bella that ends up with one of the most valuable powers of all.
and unfortunately, bella’s “intimidating” powers are what prevent the book from actually having a climax
Exactly. Bella’s “power” prevents a battle at all!
Why does there have to be a battle for their to be a climax? The scene is pretty climactic, it’s just done in a quiet way. There doesn’t have to be vampires and wolves tearing each other apart at the end of every book. . .
Except that Bella’s “power” was a defensive one, making her still weaker than the others in a way. Edward can invade the minds of others. Jane can inflict pain. Jasper can alter moods. Even the creepy baby can do something to others.
Sam I see your view but consider this. Her “power” may be a defense but it puts her in a more powerful position than the others because as “powerful” as they are, they can’t touch her or anyone she intends to protect.
Does anyone else notice that Bella only becomes a strong character after she becomes a mom? Until motherhood it comes off as Bella has no purpose to speak up; Bellas is never living for herself throughout the enitre series. What bugs me is that at the end she didn’t really even take pride or credit in her one shining moment. Sure it’s one thing to appear humble on the outside but we were supposed to be in her thougts. I think I would have enjoyed the series a lot more and would be inclined to see the movies if the main character had been different.
In truth – it is a continuing story – in Book 4 – Bella does turn out to be the HERO – In her speech at the end of Eclipse (which was taken out of Breaking Dawn)She explains that she never felt normal – did not fit in – She comes into her own in book 4 – And after all is said & done – Stephanie can laugh all the way to the bank as you “so called literary writers” try to 2nd guess her.
Feminism as I understand it is a matter of a womans right to be considered equal and her right to choose whatever she wants. In that respect I do not see the Twilight series as a step back for feminism. What I think is unfortunate about Twilight is what I also think is great about Twilight. Alot of people claim that feminism killed chivalry; as to whether or not that is true, I don’t know but because of Twilight, we now have millions literally, millions of women who desire that kind of swept away chivalrous romance…in some cases women are demanding it of potential suitors and significant others which I think is great. Men kinda stopped trying over the last couple decades and I like that women are complaining about it. Now the downside to this is that it’s obviously unrealistic…not even Robert Pattinson looks like ‘Edward’ okay? So young girls who are gonna be gobsmacked by the realisation that they have to ‘settle’, that no ‘Edward’is waiting out there for them are in for a realsiation that the ‘Twilight’ world they’ve imagined doesn’t really work in the Real world pass the age of 15. Another downside to this is the guys who are gonna make this work to their advantage just to take advantage of silly romaticisim obsessed girls. Twilight reads as a ‘how-to’ on seducing a young girl into giving it up before she realises that the idealisation that is ‘Edward’ does not and never will exist. But having said all this, this is just my humble opinion and I really don’t hink the Twi-hards really are that dull to expect these things, though I thinks its great that Twilight forcibly raised the bar for guys as far as being romantic goes.
COULDN’T have said it better!! Exactly my thoughts! Thanks Observer.
why can’t women be romantic/the pursuers, though?
Why can’t women be the pursuers? Because WE want to be pursued. Yes, that was ingrained in us since childhood, perhaps even wrongfully so, but it’s true. Women want to be loved, cherished and desired. It does not make a lot of women feel desired if she has to pursue the man.
It doesn’t mean that women aren’t romantic, but I think many of us would rather respond to love and desire, not be the initiators of it. We want to know that there is someone out there looking for us.
Ok, My problem with Twilight is this: I, as a male 19 year old have always felt bad for how men sometimes treat women as their inferior, so i always try to treat everyone as my equal trying to make my female friends feel proud about being a woman and not letting guys walk over them so when i read the twilight books i was upset at the portrayal of a young girl who has nothing of self-respect and who´s only porpose is to be with someone but what really disgusted was the fact that there were women who idiolized this idea, as someone who has always tried to be a male feminist i cannot understand why you would let people take away your pride just so they can love you.
i´m not trying to say that you can´t enjoy the books and movies, but you have to be conscious of what you are watching/reading.
I agree.
I do relate to it as a vision of romance for sure. I’m glad women are able to do what they want, but if what they want is romantic love then it’s all good too.
Why can’t the story of Bella and her lover be nothing more than a sweet fantasy? Why are feminists so afraid of having weaknesses when it comes to love? Don’t we all? It’s fun…..why do we have to disect everything and decide if it is for or against, good or bad?
It’s just a story. We are romantic creature. What is wrong with that????Just stop worrying so much about possible undertones, which may or may not exist and enjoy it.
To me, the story reflects a subversive misogny through it’s allegedly chaste and noble view of sex. Bella’s sexuality, as interpreted through Edward’s attraction to her, is viewed as something dangerously powerful that must be contained. She is a kind of evil temptress to Edward. We are constantly told that if he gives in to his desire for her, he will lose all self-control and wreak havoc on the world, causing death and destruction- and it will all be Bella’s fault. After two books of Bella practically begging Edward to sleep with her, he finally agrees- on the condition that she submit to the confinement of a traditional marriage, which she has zero interest in. …I could care less if Edward watches her sleep or not. This is the issue that really bothers me (well, that and Bella BREAKING DAWN SPOILER ALERT ultimately rejecting education, her family and friends and her humanity in favor of her “love” for Edward.)
THIS. That is exactly my problem with the entire series! Bella just throws her life away for Edward, as if nothing else matters now that she’s got the vampire/god. It’s terrible to know this is what is being sold as “romance” to young girls.
This harkens back to the old Madonna/Wh*re dichotomy of how women were/are often viewed. Their sexuality was a temptation to men, so it had to be either denied (restricting women to roles as virginal religious figures or mothers who only had sex for procreation) or temptresses. This is the reasoning behind the religious and cultural custom of swathing females in layers and layers of fabric. It is not a harmless notion.
WELL SAID LISA. you got that, Owen?
Actually – if you read all the books it is stated numerous times that Bella never felt like she belonged to the ‘normal’ world. She never fit in anywhere and once she stumbled upon Edward and the Cullens she found her place. Edward is just a piece of it. It is one of the reasons why she was such a mess in New Moon. Yes, she lost Edward but she also lost the ‘world’ she felt she belonged to. Even in Eclipse, the movie, she states she would want to be a vampire whether or not Edward was around. So she’s not throwing away everything. She is stepping in to the world she belongs in. Yes, it’s kind of comical but it’s supposed to be a fun escapism type book. Maybe if everyone stopped taking it so seriously we wouldn’t have to have these idiotic debates. And no – I don’t allow my daughter’s to think there is a pale, sparkly man waiting in the wings from them. Most people are smart enough to know that’s not going to happen. If they don’t realize that they obviously need help for other reasons.
How is that fun escapism? It’s masochism or sadism at its best.
Having only watched two minutes of New Moon, I wonder if Bella would kill herself for us all and get this crap over with. I hate the fact that the lead female is represented with such pathetic behavior.
Erin, perfectly said. I find the point of view where it comes to female sexuality deeply disturbing. I don’t think it is romantic at all, and it is saddening that young girls might embrace that as their idea of what romance is/should be about. And Bella keeping the baby in Breaking Down is unambiguously pro-life. That is shoved down the throats of millions of young – and therefore impressionable – minds. I do not think that it is a harmless pop culture phenomenon, on the contrary. And what annoys me most of all is that there is a pseudo-dilemma, like you cannot be both a romantic and a feminist. But, for the life of me, I don’t see where romance comes into this at all. It is so backward, it makes the skin crawl
I agree with the false dichotomy of feminism and romance. I am very romantic and also am disturbed by how Bella never owns her own sexuality.. how it is perceived as a danger, etc. It falls in line with what women are taught in many conservative religions however. It’s not healthy in my opinion and sets up an antagonistic relationship between the sexes.
I totally agree, though I don’t have a problem with Meyers advocating her pro-life beliefs (for the record, I am pro-choice).
The biggest problem I have with these books is that once you strip away all the longing gazes in the moonlight and soulmate double-talk, what you have at the end is a paternalistic abstinence tale in which the heroine is chastized for her desires and subjected to the rules and timetables established and enforced by the man. So much for “I am woman, hear me roar…”
I liked it the first time this love story line was done on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That was better because Buffy is a strong female character that young girls should look up to. She had all that big love stuff, but she was independent and while she loved Angel, she knew there was more to life than that love.
To me, I don’t really see it this way. Honestly I find it refreshing that a man is being portrayed as the one who wants to hold out on physical intimacy and who is concerned with a more conservative approach to relationships. I also think it is very refreshing to see a girl portrayed as the sexually aggressive one in a relationship – though not at all in a “sl*tty” way. For me, Jacob’s character is revolting and for Bella to choose him, would have been the ultimate anti-feminist move. I have experienced to many Jacob’s in my life telling me they know better than I do what I feel or what I want. Just because Bella didn’t want to go down that road and hurt Jacob by telling him flat out that yeah I love you but it’s not that kind of love/it’s not as deep as the love I feel for Edward and hence you are not the one for me and I know this as gospel fact, doesn’t mean she didn’t know what she felt. I find Jacob’s character to be very selfish, immature and childish. Bella is also immature and can be selfish, but to me she is an accurate portrayl of a young girl. At that age we blunder along and we make mistakes. Both Edward and Jacob have a bit of the stalker in them, but I appreciate when Edward tells Jacob that he wants Bella to have a good life and not necessarily change, that he would respect her decision if she wanted to leave him for Jacob, and that he would never force Bella into something she didn’t want to do again. That’s respect in my opinion; that’s listening to your partner.
Just wanted to add that I didn’t mean to imply necessarily that Jacob was not an accurate portrayl of a young man. Both he and Bella are very young and I think that’s what drives a lot of their blundering. To me though, especially given my personal past experience, I find a lot of Jacob’s behaviors to point to a deeper flaw than simply age.
I don’t really see how anyone could “relate” to this vision of romance, except maybe people in abusive relationships. I think the Twilight fans are twisted enough to idealize and wish for the type of romance at the core of these stories, while the rest of us know that this type of romance doesn’t exist in a healthy relationship.
Exactly. The books are just cheese, which are not meant to be taken seriously. But when you’re dealing with 12 year old girls (Meyer’s main fanbase), who have a tendency to idealize and obsess, themes like the ones presented in the twilight books do more damage than good.
Where does everyone come up with the idea that Meyer’s core fan base are 12 year old girls? I was at the midnight premier in my town and less than a third of the people there were under sixteen and the majority were over 18. Most 12 year olds I know have only heard of the books and have never even ventured to crack them open. It’s not for a lack of submersion in the subject because I live in Port Angeles, Washington where there is something Twilight on every corner, store front, and restaurant window. The crazed psycho-fans that react with a Backstreet Boy-type fandom that you see on tv are not representative of the majority of “fans”. People need to stop worrying so much about these young, impressionable, tweens. There are much worse things out there that they actually ARE into.
Thank you. I was waiting for someone to bring up the abusive aspect in the Twilight series. I work in counselling abused women, and what has always struck me most about the series, and the Edward/Bella relationship, is that it is a perfect textbook example of an emotionally abusive relationship. Look, to each their own, and I will be the last to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t read or watch, but the abusive angle is the reason that the whole Twilight culture leaves me cold.
I think you’re right. I love watching the movies because they bring back that obsessive nature of love/lust I experienced in high school/college, but was ultimately unhealthy. It’s an addictive kind of energy but should not be the standard for a mature relationship.
I don’t think it is a new kind of feminism, but rather a realisation of an old kind of feminism, one where the right to choose is paramount. Women’s right to choose to be in the boardroom or at home, to be dominant in a relationship or submissive is what was once paramount but it got lost somewhere in the struggle for a career and equality in an economic context. Bella Swan may seem old fashioned in her choices such as getting married young, having a family young, devoted to her partner and child above all else, but what is most important is that these are choices, not something she was forced into by social pressure. In the media there is an abundance of career orientated sexually forward women, there are not a lot of Bella Swans and I think that women and girls are identifying with someone who hasn’t existed on the pop culture spectrum before. Her popularity is linked to her rarity.
I agree 100%. The strength she displays in her choices, not in what peoples perception of her choices mean.
@J – Ok, wow. Just wow. Are you me?!
Seriously, I have been saying exactly this and saying it and saying it to all my feminist peers and anyone else who will listen and all I seem to get is this sort of polite, tepid response. But you – finally – get this, get me. So great. Feel no need to expand or expound, as you’ve said it perfectly. Thank you.
I have to say as a male, I’m not angry because Twilight beat Transformer, in fact I hate Transformers, it’s the lowest form of entertainment, with stereotypical characters. Heck the Megan Fox character is probably worse than Bella because she isn’t even a character, she’s just a pair of boobs and an ass.
And you’re forgetting certain young men love a strog female character; the Veronica Mars, Buffy Summers, Sydney Bristows of the world. So yeah that’s a pretty strong generalization to make Owen.
And Scarlet O’Hara(from Gone with the Wind) is actually a pretty strong female character, at least if you consider her time period, position in life and where she was from. She really challenged women’s roles of her time and developed from spoiled, shrewd brat to a women well ahead of her time. If only Bella went back to Gone With the Wind time.
Very well said, Josh.
I appreciate a guy’s opinion on this. I know a lot of guys that prefer a woman that can hold their own and challenge them a little. And I definitely like what you said about Scarlett O’Hara. She turns out to be pretty tough by the end of that book.
Thanks, this didn’t show up last time though, haha. Had to make the post again :-p.
When I had to read Gone with the Wind for one of my English Lit courses I was pretty surprised by how much I ended up liking it. I really thought it would be a love story and Scarlet would be some fragile southern belle who swoons at every man she meets. It was really a pleasant surprise to see just how complex and wonderfully flawed her character was.
I couldn’t agree more Josh. Owen’s observation actually threw me, I don’t see any similarities between Gone with the Wind and Twilight, on the contrary. Bella needs a man to exist, Scarlet never did! The way she took control of her destiny, even through morally ambiguous choices (to put it mildly) is nothing but startling, especially considering the period. You can choose to view it as a love story, but it is so much more. My favorite scene will always be Scarlet digging the dirt for food and swearing that she will never again be hungry
What are you talking about – Scarlett was so gone on Ashley that for the whole period of the book she could not quit chasing him and he kept her from recognizing that Rhett was her soul mate.
Glad that I’m not the only guy who hates Transformers and Megan Fox.
Owen wasn’t comparing Twilight to Gone With the Wind. He was just saying that Twilight-type romances should have disappeared around the time of Gone With the Wind.
“A grand paradox in all this is that a great many professed Twilight haters are young men who, though they may not acknowledge it, are threatened by this pop-cultural juggernaut.”
To be quite fair, I am the exact demographic, a young woman, that Twilight is aimed at and I know plenty of young women just like me who are professed Twilight-haters. Sure, I believe that there are plenty of young men who hate Twilight, I know quite a few myself, but for young women like me, it’s hard not to be insulted by the creation of these books and their aim at people like me. The belief that I am a sucker for anything dazzling romantic just because I’m a young woman? Insulting. I mean, I can stomach some rom coms every now and then and sometimes I even actively seek them out, but story still matters, even then. Just like how I can’t stand a shrill heroine (a la Katherine Heigl in Knocked Up – TBH that girl has every right to trash that role), I can’t stand a, not only passive, but downright inconsiderate and selfish heroine like Bella. Why would I ever want to watch or read about a girl who is supposed to be like me, but doesn’t appreciate anything in her life despite parents and friends who care about her? I would never want to be like Bella, and I think it is incredibly insulting that people think I should want to be like her just because I am a young woman.
And, honestly, I could go on about this for ages (http://sarahelmovies.blogspot.com/2010/07/yet-another-reason-i-hate-twilight-and.html)
Great points all around Sarah El, and great blog post too!
I don’t mind the ‘damsel meets caveman’ premise so much in ‘Classic’ literature, but in a ‘modern’ story it just comes off as dated and out of touch. We should know better and should have moved beyond that. It’s been done and there are new stories to tell.
I really think that you guys have way too much time on your hands…This is a book that was meant to be enjoyed, like most other books. It wasn’t meant to be a how-to book that tells people what romance would be like. It is an art form of the imagination. It was Stephanie Meyer’s idea and she created Bella and the others how she saw fit. Now if you don’t like it that’s just too bad. Don’t read the books or see the movies. But these books and movies were made to stretch the bounds of your imagination. And people who actually enjoy this stuff, don’t want to be criticized or have other people criticizing something they have interest in.
Seriously, I agree with Liz above – why do we have to justify what we enjoy about a book and listen to others opinions about our choices. Sure they book can be seen many different ways and it will be. That is what makes book great….they can raise a conversation that takes you unknown places. Now we have to take it too extremes and over analyze it! It is simply crazy. I plan to simpy enjoy it and the eye candy that the movies have added.
Hahah i agree with you and Liz these people are the crazy one not the Twilight fans.Maybe its jealousy because they dont see what others see…..
I think people have a right to enjoy whatever they want to, but if they really enjoy it, they should be able to justify their opinions, even if it’s just to say that it’s a guilty pleasure or something like that.
I would agree that these books shouldn’t be considered ‘how to’ books. However, with that say, I know many females all between the ages of 17 and 45 that have claimed men need to watch these movies or read these books so they can learn how to properly love a female. I admit I tried reading the first book and got about 90 pages into it before I decided Bella was too whiney and I couldn’t figure out how anyone would be interested in her, so I gave up. So, I can’t say if this is really a good ‘how to’ book for guys or not. I guess my real point is that some females, at least those that I know, see this as a ‘how to’ book for love and I find that a bit crazy.
Ummm, Liz, I think all books are created to be enjoyed. And also, we all know it wasn’t meant to be a how-to book on romance; however, the young girls that are reading it tend to obsess and fantasize about what they’re reading – and I’m sure most girls, if and when they end up in a relationship like Bella and Edward’s, won’t find it’s as great as they thought it would be.
AMEN Liz, I have never seen something intended for entertainment (just entertainment people) to be criticized so much. I can’t stand all this “real-vampires” don’t sparkle…OMG do they realize ALL vampires are fictional charectors. Just like a person who doesn’t enjoy boxing wouldn’t go and see ROCKY, if you don’t enjoy “love-story” vampire movies…STAY HOME!!! They say the fans are “obsessed” with the movie, yet it seems the “non-fans” are just as obsessed to find fault with it.
I agree completely with your point about fans and non-fan obsession. I was bored and ended up reading this article and then the comments. I’m not moved in either direction but find it obsurd that so many people have a disagreeable opinion about harmless entertainment that other people like. Seriously it is akin to me critisizing my daughter for liking Miley Cyrus (sp?). Why all the defensiveness and hurt feelings?