Image Credit: Jason Merritt/Getty Images
What makes a celebrity into a scoundrel? The answer may seem simple — do what Mel Gibson did! Or Charlie Sheen! Or Lindsay Lohan! Or Arnold! — but when you really think about it, the answer isn’t simple at all. A lot of celebrities do a lot of bad things. They cheat on their wives and husbands and girlfriends and boyfriends. They consume alcohol and drugs in volumes that would cripple a horse (I can think of one prominent actress who became a junkie just at the moment when she hit her It Girl fame, although it never did become public). They go to rehab, and then they relapse.
Most of this stuff, of course, occurs in private. But it isn’t just the media-wide airing of personal demons that results in a full-on celebrity meltdown. To really shake the public’s faith in you, you’ve got to do something that feels wrong in just about every way, something that takes a side of you we thought we knew and gives it a spin that makes us go, “Ugh! I wish I didn’t know that!” It’s not so much that you shock the public as that you decisively, and darkly, alter your image. You mess with the celebrity equivalent of the third rail, which is that special, mythical place where private behavior and public persona — art and life — merge. That’s when you’ve suddenly got a real problem.
The news that Arnold Schwarzenegger fathered a child ten years ago with his housekeeper probably wouldn’t have caused as big a media ruckus if he hadn’t ever been the governor of California. Politics, more than ever, may now be a form of showbiz, but we still hold politicians to different standards than we do entertainers. That, of course, is why Schwarzenegger kept the news secret until he left office; if he hadn’t, it might well have forced him out. The irony is that his status as a politician enlarged the scandal, but it’s his identity as a movie star that’s going to have to live with that oversize stain on who he is.
Most people, including me, would say that he deserves the stain, yet our moral judgment may be more arbitrary than we’d like to think. Twenty years ago, Robin Williams married his son’s nanny, and no one batted an eyelash. Is the Arnold situation all that different? In the case of Williams, we had no idea, really, how long that relationship had been going on — at the time, the attitude was: It was none of our business — and there was, of course, no secret child out of wedlock (at least, not during Williams’ first marriage). The real difference, though, may be that Arnold is married to a celebrity himself — a Kennedy, no less, which places Maria Shriver in the familiar, powerful role of long-suffering Kennedy victim-wife. Plus, Schwarzenegger had already been accused, several years ago, of making brutish advances on other women, so his current situation has a bit of a “last straw” quality.
But can he put the scandal behind him now that he’s trying to re-launch his movie career? Here’s why I think he probably can’t, at least not completely. Arnold is 63, so the prospect of his going back to being the kind of movie star he once was had something of a running-on-fumes quality to begin with. He was looking at doing another Terminator film (talk about squeezing a spent franchise dry!), and other comic-book action projects as well, but how long can a man in his sixties pretend, onscreen, to run around and kick people’s butts like he’s 20 years younger? Still, the proposed animated series The Governator sounded promising, and as The Expendables proved last summer, there may well be a market for absurdly fit geriatric action demigods who can tap our nostalgia for when they were in their prime. Arnold’s real problem is the kind of star he is.
“No one could believe that Arnold kept this from Maria Shriver for 10 years,” quipped Bill Maher in his HBO monologue last night, “because that would involve acting.” Arnold Schwarzenegger, because of his nature as a screen presence (pumped-up, larger-than-life, with that faintly absurd accent), has to play characters who are simple. Not simpletons, mind you, but men sketched in plus-size dimensions of cartoon nobility. When he does comedy, like Kindergarten Cop or Jingle All the Way, he’s a massively overscaled Good Guy, a hulk with a heart of gold. As an action hero, he’s a brooding monolith. Even in the Terminator world (which first cast him as a villain), he’s now on the side of righteousness. And because there are no shadings — none! — to an Arnold Schwarzenegger performance, our gut-level perception of him as a giant body housing a basically noble soul is the cornerstone of our response to him.
Now, suddenly, we look at Arnold and see…a stone-face domestic liar. Can he still do “light,” funny dialogue in which he pokes fun of his Teutonic Hercules image? Will we buy it when his eyes glow with righteous vengeance as he mows down baddies with a laser gun? Arnold, for the moment, has tabled his movie projects, but the dilemma he’ll eventually have to face is this: Can audiences still accept the essential nobility of Arnold the Barbarian if they now see him as a bit of a barbarian for real?
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I’ve heard of films being banned (usually by repressive governments), but filmmakers? At a film festival? When officials at Cannes announced last Wednesday that the Danish director Lars von Trier would henceforth be “persona non grata” at the Cannes Film Festival because of scurrilous comments he made (at a press conference for his film Melancholia) about Jews, Nazis, Hitler, and his own past, it had a faintly trivial scolding-the-bad-boy ring, as if he were being sent down to the assistant principal’s office. Since I’m a freedom of speech absolutist, my initial reaction was: The banning of Von Trier was a mistake — a punishment as problematic as the crime. But one needs to understand why the Cannes officials acted as they did. Anti-Semitism is illegal in France (a rather dicey thing to enforce, to be sure), and so the festival was acting in accord with national policy. And unlike Von Trier, let’s not mince words: What he said was anti-Semitic.
Here, for the record, are his complete comments, delivered in response to a question about his complicated past:
“The only thing I can tell you is that I thought I was a Jew for a long time and was very happy being a Jew, then later on came [Danish, and Jewish, director] Susanne Bier, and suddenly I wasn’t so happy about being a Jew. That was a joke. Sorry. But it turned out that I was not a Jew. If I’d been a Jew, then I would be a second-wave Jew, a kind of a new-wave Jew, but anyway, I really wanted to be a Jew and then I found out that I was really a Nazi, because my family was German. Which also gave me some pleasure.
“So, I, what can I say? I understand Hitler. I think he did some wrong things — yes, absolutely — but I can see him sitting in his bunker in the end. I’m just saying that I think I understand the man. He’s not what you could call a good guy, but yeah, I understand much about him and I sympathize with him a little bit, yes. But come on, I’m not for the Second World War! And I’m not against Jews. No, not even Susanne Bier. That was also a joke. I am, of course, very much for Jews. No, not too much, because Israel is a pain in the ass. But still, how can I get out of this sentence? I just want to say I’m very much for Speer. Albert Speer, I liked. He was also, maybe, one of God’s best children. He had some talent that was kind of possible for him to use during, um… Okay, I’m a Nazi.”
In his opening salvo (basically, that first paragraph), Von Trier, to me, comes off as a bit of a douche, clearly so competitive with his fellow Danish director Susanne Bier that he is willing to risk the “joke” of putting her down for what he thought of, at the time, as their shared heritage. The remarks are tainted by his contempt, by his smirk-that-may-be-a-sneer; they certainly count as a “provocation.” But if that’s all there was to it, I don’t think anyone would have cared. Much.
But the moment that Von Trier starts to talk about Hitler, he reveals himself far beyond the superficial bite of his “snarky” intentions. The way that he deliberately and impishly understates Hitler’s crimes (“I think he did some wrong things”), and then, in case we missed it, does it again (“He is not what you would call a good guy”), is more than a provocation — it makes a hash of history, and just at a moment when Holocaust denial, in places like Iran, has become an intense political issue. It also sets the tone for what Von Trier actually means when he says that he “understands” Hitler. It’s no crime, of course, to try to “understand” what goes on in the mind of an evil megalomanic. I would argue that, for a civilized society trying to come to grips with history, it’s essential. But in context, when Von Trier says that he understands Hitler, what he’s really saying is that he identifies with him (“I sympathize with him”). And that’s not a “provocation.” That’s the statement of a warped man.
The question, once again, becomes: Does Lars von Trier’s bad behavior, his toxic words, in any way reflect how we take in his movies? The simple answer, to me, is that they shouldn’t. I have not seen Melancholia, which Lisa Schwarzbaum, in her report from Cannes, heralded as a powerful work of art. When it’s released later this year, I’ll watch the movie on its own terms, and I’ll hope that it’s great, as I always do when I see a new film by Lars von Trier.
Image Credit: Francois Guillot/AFP/Getty Images
Yet the reason that the answer may not be so simple is that Melancholia aside, it’s been a long time, to me, since Lars von Trier made a great film, and what I wonder is: Is the side of him that is driven, in his prankish Professor of Outrage way, to make veiled hateful remarks at a press conference a side of him that is now getting in his way as an artist? In that photograph of him to the left, the letters have been blurred, but he’s got the word “f—” tattooed on his knuckles. Which makes you wonder who that message is intended for: the bureaucrats who would silence him, or — maybe just a little bit — his audience?
Last year, I went back, for the first time since it came out, to watch Breaking the Waves again, Von Trier’s staggering 1996 drama of love, insanity, catastrophe, God, and glam rock, and my feeling now — I don’t say this lightly — is that it’s one of the greatest movies ever made. There’s an emotional purity to it. It does contain a streak of perversity, of provocation, if you will (the heroine, played by Emily Watson, degrades herself before God to heal her afflicted husband), yet there isn’t a moment in the movie that’s facile or schematic, not a moment when Von Trier, with his lyrically ragged hand-held images, views life in this world, dark as it can be, as anything less than holy.
In the movies that he has made since then (Dancer in the Dark, which was like a remake of Breaking the Waves, only this time it was schematic; the ugly and tedious Brecht-wrapped-in-burlap misanthropy of Dogville and Manderlay; the grandiose domestic torture porn of Antichrist, a movie that was practically designed to be a success de scandale at the Cannes Film Festival), Von Trier has evolved into a different kind of filmmaker: a punk artiste who wears his sadism like an armband. Frankly, he now makes movies a little bit like a guy who wishes he was a Nazi. And so the real problem may not be that Von Trier spouted anti-Semitic provocations at a press conference. It’s that he may be an artist who is now more driven by hate than he is by love.
What do you think of the Arnold scandal? The Von Trier scandal? Does it influence your desire to see either of their movies? Or should art and life be, and remain, separate?
Follow Owen on Twitter: @OwenGleiberman








All Von Trier’s guilty of is making a lousy joke. Pity Cannes and the world have to worry about such a trivial matter.
Absolutely. The transcript doesn’t do this situation justice…you can tell, when watching the video of the press conference, that von Trier just (epically) failed at delivering a joke, and when he realized he didn’t stick the landing he tried to joke his way out of it (but he dug himself deeper). I’m not saying people shouldn’t be offended by his remarks, but it is excessive for Cannes to ban him.
All I know is that the sicko that wrote this article thinks that cheating on your wife and leaving for another woman (like Robin Williams did) is the same as HIDING A CHILD FROM YOUR WIFE FOR A DECADE.
How do creeps like this work at EW?
Mr. Glieberman is BRAGGING about being an ABSOLUTIST on free-speech? Poor guy.
Being an absolutist on any matter means you aren’t even open to considering the logic in opposing viewpoints. It flies in the face of free speech or whatever this clown thinks he’s protecting. Typical emotional cripple.
Um…what dictionary are you using Cassie? Maybe it’s time to switch it up. Absolutist on free speech means he isn’t open to considering the content of the speech, believing all viewpoints have a right to be heard. He would not, for example, delete your comment just because it is uninformed and ridiculous.
The personality disorders came first, and then the celebrity; craving fame and worship was a symptom for John Edwards, Arnold and Lindsey before they hit the big time, then the fame fed into their mental illnesses. Most of these people would be homeless with mental issues if they hadn’t hit the big time; now like Charlie Sheen their are rich with the same mental issues, only now they get carte blanche to misbehave.
Owen,
SPARE US your empty claims of junkie-knowledge if you are then petulantly not going to provide any info whatsoever.
That goes against ever rule of responsible and mature journalism.
There was no need to bring it up. It’s a classless move to try and engender the trust of the reader with a bogus claim of some secret you claim to have but won’t share.
Childish nonsense. Go back on leave.
Being a joke doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive and obnoxious.
Honestly though I’m kind of glad he said it, just so my long standing hatred toward him can be confirmed. Douche.
It’s still silly to ban him though. A little much.
Owen,
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Thanks for the article.
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Arnold reportedly had been keeping the secret from his wife and the public for a decade or so, not to mention having fathered a love child out of wedlock and provided care for his in-house working mistress. This is absolutely unacceptable.
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In re his comeback, to be honest, with or without the incident, for long have I (kinda) lost interest in him as an actor; so, I may or may not entertain myself with the novelties under his name.
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As for the European director, he simply crossed the line. I also suspect a bit the case of cognates and the like, as well as calculated publicity stunt.
Owen, what you seem to conveniently overlook in your overly-simplistic attack on von Trier (just as so many of his defenders also conveniently overlook in their equally overly-simplistic defense of him) is that we are, ALL of us, at all times, mere moments away from being able to spout off with deeply-held comments and worldviews which evidence profound hatred and loathing of our fellow man (or, for that matter, profound kindness toward or empathy regarding them). Von Trier, whatever his other failings as a human being, has, as an ARTIST, always understood this about the human condition; that we all have it in ourselves, at any moment, to instantly morph into a Hitler or a Mother Teresa in an eyeblink, and then, just as fast, back to our usual, socially-acceptable, blandly-masked selves. It’s what films of his like DOGVILLE and BREAKING THE WAVES are all about.
Eh. Claims to a universal human truth without any evidence beyond a (mis-)reading of Von Trier’s films. Sounds like someone else is being overly simplistic.
I think their bad behavior takes place when they don’t have new product out. Arnold Schwarzenegger had already ended his run as governor of California and now this mention of this affair and love child blows up and takes up media space for 4 days. Same with Charlie Sheen and Lindsay Lohan; they had nothing out at the time and then they act out in frustration.
Charlie Sheen was in the middle of filming the most successful show on television. Lindsay Lohan’s issues have spanned years, including times when she was working. Your argument doesn’t make sense.
I think it’s more than just not having a new product to pitch. These people seem to have something in common: huge massive egos and believing their own publicity. Fans fawn over them and they start thinking they really are better than the little people. In Arnold’s case, he kept the maid working in his house alongside his wife and kids. He would either have to be the stupidest person on earth or incredibly arrogant to pull that off. Whichever it is, I doubt that he will see any success with future projects.
politicians and movie stars have huge egos? that’s crazy talk.
I don’t condone Arnold’s infidelity, but, our culture is weird because it is obsessed w/sex– in advertising and entertainment, because it “sells”– and people don’t realize how much programming their brains get w/sexual images. (It is no wonder the Muslims think we are decadent.)
At the same time, we are so puritanical and judgemental about sex.
I wonder how legalized prostitution affects families in Amsterdam?
I don’t think legalized prostitution is a bad idea– to take the taboo out of sex, if men could just go and do it they wouldn’t need all the deception and if it weren’t so forbidden it wouldn’t have to be driven underground.
There is legalized prostitution in Nevada, I saw a special on it, the women were safe, and one of them gave an interview and was highly educated and well spoken.
So many marriages and careers are destroyed by infidelity, I just don’t think men can contain themselves, even good men. Our culture seems to set men up for failure, especially wealthy men, who are all targets.
Seriously? You are going to blame evolution for Arnold’s horrific behavior?!!?? The worst, WORST part about it is not that he had a child out of wedlock with a staffer, it is that he LIED to his family for 10 years and had the woman EMPLOYED at his house where his family lived the entire time!! That’s a big F.U. to his family’s feelings. If he can lie to his family, his friends, and the people of California for 10 years about something like this, which would obviously need some extensive covering up, what else could he lie about? Everything. What would be off limits to him? Nothing.
Arnold put his own desires above his wife, his children, the child out of wedlock, and the mistress, and everyone else in this story. He continually lied for 10 years. He continually covered things up for 10 years. He only came clean to his family when he was threatened by the mistress.
I think if he had just been a celebrity we might have gone “Yuck” and then moved on. But he was ensured with a public trust as a government official. Owen, you’re right when you say the public holds them up to a higher standard because they are supposed to be leaders and have the public’s best interests at heart while they are in office. Arnold has proven himself to be untrustworthy in word and deed and if this had come out while he was in office I would almost guarantee he would have been forced out.
obviously arnold was too racked with guilt after spending a decade-plus in his horribly little closet of silence. it’s a dirty conscience thing. also a political thing. a man with political aspirations is defintiely doing to keep something like that under wraps, and before you go all “then don’t go into politcs” on me: consider kennedy and clinton and (the truest badass of the bunch) fdr; then consider that nixon and bush jr were both strictly committed to their honey flowers. so he lied, yeah, to keep a political career afloat. he leaves the throne, he outs his infidelity to his wife, she (warrantedly) goes ape-crap, divorces him, and then it all spills into the media. did he do a horrible thing? i dunno. neither do any of you. to lambast someone’s infidelity, particularly a public persona, is the worst kind of judgment. we don’t know this guy. he did an okay job as governor, i guess. he made a bunch of really successful (and some not so successful) b-movies. and you wanna tell me politicians and movie stars are at a higher moral standard than the rest of us who can’t wait to lambast the suckers when they slip up? grow up. and owen….ugh. retire. give it all to lisa. you have sucked for twenty years. seriously, how does someone writing professional for twenty years not mature a day in their craft?
chris you must not live in California. No one in California thinks Arnold “did an okay job as governor.” He actually created horrible problems for the state that will take years to fix.
eight years ain’t bad. besides, it’s california. as in: who cares if my one-word depiction was realistic or not.
I just don’t think men can contain themselves, even good men.
That’s just nonsense.
Also, why all this,”if men could just go and do it” and “I don’t think men can contain themselves”?
What about women? You know we like sex, too, right? And we’re “programmed” by evolution to cheat, too. But when was the last time you heard anyone defending a woman’s infidelity with, “well, it’s okay, because women can’t help themselves”?
If a single man goes to a prostitute; it’s not infidelity. So why get married if you really want to have sex with random people whenever you want? Why promise sexual fidelity to a spouse if you’re incapable of it? By claiming wealthy men are “targets”; you’re painting women as gold-diggers and men as helpless with no sense of discernment and no control over their own genitals. Surely you’re joking? You sound like those who liken men to dogs that hump anything in their path. If that is the case, then why would any woman marry you? No woman would embrace a life of battling STDs and lies.
Arnold has collected a ton of indiscretion – just not that interesting to me. Von Trier was obviously doing something outrageous to generate publicity for his film. I doubt that he is an anti-semite.
Arnold – finished, over, toast
Von Trier – back to the margins just when he was gaining a wider audience
Mel Gibson – done like dinner
i’m pretty sure a terminator movies starring arnold (and not directed by mcg) would gross $80million-plus in its opening weekend. finished, over, toast? i seriously doubt that. this isn’t that terrible. people are just…thin-skinned? i dunno what people are. too nosey for their own good. too obsessed with the flaws in famous people, because their too flawed themselves. mel gibson did a lot worse crap, and he’s not done making movies. and von trier. dude, i don’t like becoming “mainstream” ever meant that much to him. he’ll be making movies at the exact same rate with the exact same audience as before. but hey, thanks for the five-day forecast.
Arnold is done. It’s hard to imagine him coming back from this. Von Trier will be fine. I love his films. However, I do not blame Cannes for their decision. They have a right to choose who attends their functions and they have a right to decide how they want their festival represented. I don’t think von Trier meant what he said, but he has to be responsible for his words. Even if they were meant as some sort of joke or provocation, the festival organizers have a right to decide if his words and actions are in direct conflict with what the standards they want to uphold.
I’ve hated Von Trier since Dancer in the Dark (despite Bjork’s beautiful performance.) His portayal of America is so off the mark and reduced to stereotypes and schlock that I can’t believe ANYONE would take him seriously. He’s quoted as saying he’s never been to America and never would. I’m not a patriotic flag waver…in fact I’m a liberal…but I have a huge problem with a film-maker who has made a career in trying shock people based on his own insecurities. That and Dogville is a giant piece of pretentious crap. Ugh. There are so many greater filmmakers outside the US and yet Von Trier seems to always try and put himself in the spotlight. I detest him.
I’m not a fan of Lars Von Triers work,and what he said in Cannes was stupid and I don’t blame them for banning him. But to be fair, as a Dane myself, I get how he got himself into so much trouble, because the nuances in the english language are different from the ones in the danish. I’ve seen the press conference on tv and I think what he was trying to say was that he doesn’t like Susanne Bier and that he sees Hitler as a weak, miserable person, and that he felt sorry for the man, without condoning his actions. This whole thing about Hitler came from Trier watching Bruno Ganz in “Der Untergang”, and without this context and english being his second language, it ended up sounding really bad.
NedPepper: it’s a well known fact that he’s afraid of flying and he drives to Cannes every year. The only reason he doesn’t want to visit America is because he “wouldn’t survive several hours in a plane”.
Well, good for you! Thankfully, we can all see the movies we want to see. There are many great filmmakers outside the US, as you say. So enjoy them! No one is forcing you to see or like anything. In my view, he’s an interesting, complicated artist whose work often reflects the moods and insecurities in his life. I’d never claim his films are flawless. But personally, I enjoy his experimentation. They are clearly not films for everyone. But I find them fascinating, even when they falter. That’s just me though. But thank you for your very passionate opinion even thought I didn’t ask for it!!
I read the EW article on “The Governator” including Arnold’s having to convince Maria that she’s part of the cartoon. Guess he solved that problem, didn’t he?
As a huge fan of both Breaking the Waves and Dogville, I really hope his comments (clearly in poor taste, but not really as epically offensive as people are making them out to be) don’t hinder Melancholia from being seen or winning awards if deserves to do so. I had a interesting 24 hours of thinking Kirsten Dunst was finally going to score a lead actress nomination at next years Oscars, it went down quite well with me.
What I am trying to figure out is why AS news of having an affair(s?) and fathering a child from an affair is really even front page news consider the actions of celebrities in general. Is it because he was a Gov; or because he’s married to a Kennedy relative (a family where affairs and public spectacles are and were as numerous as the family is large); or because he was once a top billed actor? What makes his story worth the time and scandal when you consider all the outlandish actions of others in Hollywood. Can he come back from this — probably with the right movie. Will his family ever forgive him…well that’s another story altogether.
As for Lars Von Trier…he’s an idiot and he knew that what he was saying was going to cause a stir. Mission accomplished. Since many of the movie going public probably don’t recognize his name from right off — I’d say he is no worse off now then he was before he open his big mouth.
It does affect me negatively all that news about wars,famine,killings,bombings,men killing children,women,other men,men torching humans, animals….Men a murderous race.And woman not doing nothing to stop the men. Where the Schwarzenegger,legalized prostitution in Nevada or Lars von Trier come in on the scale? 4 , 5 , 8 ? Certainly they come on the scale of bed,stupid,selfish,woman degrading,children degrading men behavior.There is no love in such men behavior. It could be worse though, we could have break of that fragile low and order western society and scores of murderous men swarming down on us and our children .I am so grateful for the western society despite likes of Lars von Trier and legalized prostitution.Don’t like them though. Don’t like all that laying and cheating.”I’ll be back” is never be the same again.
Easily you WORST ARTICLE of all time, Mr Glieberman.
1) Robin Willians had an affair and left his wife for another woman. Arnie HID A CHILD from his wife for A DECADE. It’s INSANITY to equate the two.
It’s clear you’ve posted multiple times in the comment section under different names? Why? Just curious…
So, Von Trier gets a pass because he is an artiste? BS!
That’s definitely not what he said. He just said that he believes in free speech. He agreed the comments were offensive, and he critiqued Von Trier as an artist.
But he spent all his part on Von Trier trying to justify/explain his words and roundly speaks in disgust on Arnold. The only reason I saw that he gave to give credence to this examination was because Von Trier is an artiste. He might not have said it outright, but it is very much implied.
No, he gets a pass because his a jew failing in making a nazi joke at the same time trying to talk about his appreciation of the nazi aestetichs and architecture, while at the same trying to say something about humans inherited evil that under the right circumstances can turn everyone into another nazi or another Hitler. Therefore, understanding Hitler is understanding the human species and the evil that lurkes within us.
That subject is basically what all of Von Triers movies are about.
As he said himself, “all people have 5% nazi in them and all nazis have 5% human in them”
That was his point which he failed so miserably to deliver, before tryng to get out by using humor which apparently didnt help much.
His wife is a jew by the way.
I thought he said that he thought he was a Jew–until his mother, on her deathbed, told him his father was not the Jewish man she had long claimed was his father; but rather another man who was Danish with German ancestry. And that his mother said she was proud to have had a child by his real biological father, who was related to some famous Danish composer; rather than the relatively unsuccessful Jewish man who raised him.
It sounds like he has some issues with his parentage; and his bad “jokes” reflect his struggle to deal with his mother’s attitudes and lies.
Just like with Lou Dobbs, being married to Jew or a Hispanic doesnt mean you cant harbor racist thoughts about them.
I bet when she found out, Maria hit Arnold in the head with a telephone and then kicked him in the ribs calling him a pig and a bastard like Jamie Lee Curtis did to him in True Lies (1994).
Robin William’s case was different in that his wife was not well-known in her own right, like Shriver is. Also, he did not have a reputation for womanizing and his wife did not publicly defend him, again like Shriver did.